Actress Penelope Ann Miller takes on the complex role of Jeffrey Dahmer’s mother Joyce Flint in Netflix’s Dahmer — Monster: The Jeffrey Dahmer Story. Here, in an interview with Awards Daily, Miller talks about accessing the headspace of a woman who went through so much and about capturing an array of emotions for the limited series. Plus, she reveals how Ryan Murphy focused the series on more than just Jeffrey Dahmer — helping make the difficult project work for her.
Award Daily: Did you do any real life research on Joyce Flint?
Penelope Ann Miller: I did as much as I could find. The writing and the scenes told me a lot, but basically I just looked up interviews that she had done. This all happened after the murders when he had been caught, so it was later in her life. Then, of course, Lionel wrote a book but it was obviously from his perspective. There were some hard copy interviews so I got to see her mannerisms, the way she spoke, then the photographs with the crazy glasses that everybody seemed to wear in the show. But Rudy Mance did an amazing job with the wardrobe, and helping us all get into character, especially throughout the time frame that we went through from the 70s all the way up to the 90s. Shay Sanford-Fong and Gigi Williams with hair and makeup did a phenomenal job helping us with that, in terms of doing research with the photographs and the interviews and what people said. The other son David changed his name and nobody knows where he is, probably rightfully so so he can have a life. But, yeah, I did as much as I could possibly do.
It is really hard to fathom just the reality of this woman, who is a mother and, being a mother myself, to imagine what it must feel like to find out that your son has committed these unimaginable horrific murders. That was an interesting and complex aspect to playing this role. So I wanted to be as authentic as I could to the complexities, and her issues, from her early postpartum depression, having been medicated, working as a counselor. Then later her torment of having this son in this situation, and then wanting to help by starting this HIV center. Talking to her son and trying to help him in some way, but still loving him all the way through, which is also just a wild thing that you just can’t help being a parent because Lionel says the same thing. But knowing what he did, and the tragedy of these victims and their families out there that are suffering greatly. She was really tormented and had guilt about what happened, she said. So there’s a lot going on.
She was also in an abusive marriage. She left her son at a really young age with the younger brother. And I am sure that played a number on him. There is that saying, “hurt people hurt people,” and I think there’s a lot of that in the show. But I do think that’s what I find interesting about Dahmer. That it showed all the other relationships and followed the victims, and followed the history of Dahmer’s family so you got to see aspects of the story that aren’t just sensationalizing Jeffrey Dahmer, which has already been done. We know who he is. We do not know these people who had lives and families and livelihoods. And following those stories makes it all the more heartbreaking, but all the more interesting and fascinating to find out about.
Awards Daily: Before the show, were you interested in this case or true crime in general? Or was it the role that got you into it?
Penelope Ann Miller: I don’t really follow serial murders by and large, just not my thing. But I was aware of Jeffrey Dahmer. I have to say when I was young the whole Manson thing freaked me out. There is a sort of interest in how people get to that way, but to me it was really more about being part of this story and this show. Getting to work with Ryan Murphy, knowing that he was going to create a show that was going to be above and beyond what one would normally see in a show like this, and I found this character quite fascinating. I was excited to get behind that and figure out who this woman is, and try to bring out those nuances and the authentic. Yet she had a lot going on and I wanted to bring that to life and play it as realistically as I possibly could. Clearly, as you see in the show, the talent from behind the scenes and in front of the camera: Evan Peters, Richard Jenkins, Niecy Nash, everybody. I could just go on and on. But the talent from the cinematography, to the editing, music. I mean, you know when you’re watching a Ryan Murphy show you’re going to get all that. So I was really excited to be a part of that.
Awards Daily: Well, you’ve now already touched on this, but so many actors have praised working with Ryan Murphy–that the experience has always been so great. Did you have a particular moment working with him that you can talk about?
Penelope Ann Miller: Well, he didn’t direct the show so I didn’t really personally interact with him that way. He was sort of around like the Wizard of Oz. You know he’s there and he’s watching everything. Just in the writing that he did and creating this show with Ian Brennan knowing that he brings in the best of the best. When I had questions like with her suicide attempt, I had questions about what happened and wanted to make certain I was playing that correctly. To me that whole sequence was very interesting, and he would get back to me. So it wasn’t like we didn’t have any communication at all. But I always knew he was watching everything. Just going to set I really enjoyed it, I really enjoyed going to work because, even though it’s an incredibly dark and disturbing story, I just knew I was working with the top of the line and I was hopefully going to get to stretch my muscles as an artist.
Awards Daily: You mentioned the suicide attempt, which is in the episode with Lionel. Your character Joyce goes through quite a lot. She’s being hounded by the media, dealing with the patient who might have AIDS. There’s the argument with Lionel in the courtroom, then she’s talking to the victim’s family, then ending on the suicide attempt. What was shooting that episode like in general?
Penelope Ann Miller: To me it’s hard to imagine being in that situation. You talked about that scene where she goes to the victim’s family. I mean, first of all, just the courage that would take to literally walk up to this house to a family who has literally been broken by the fact that their son was murdered in such a horrific way. Then she has the audacity to knock on the door and ask for help for her son, who did these crimes to their son. She really did that. So, how do you do that? There is the nervous aspect about how they are going to treat me? Are they going to slam the door in my face? I am trying to appeal to them as a mother to mother even though I’m talking to the grandmother. But to say, please help him, because she didn’t want him to be killed, she wanted him to get mental health. I think it’s because she had struggled with mental health as well. I am sure there was guilt, thinking I passed my mental health issues on to him. Is there a genetic predisposition? I am sure that’s why she wanted to study his brain. But I think, as you were saying, all those aspects. Then her blaming Lionel in the courtroom because he and Jeffrey started doing roadkill, and that was their way of having a connection. And of course he blames her because she was medicated during the pregnancy, and thinking that’s the reason. I mean, that’s what happens to families in these situations: they blame each other. But that is very real.
Then the suicide attempt, and what that would feel like. To feel completely so destroyed and despondent, and feeling hopeless and in sheer agony because there is nothing you can do. Yet you’re being blamed and you are feeling guilty, and I think she just lost hope in life. Even though, I think in some way, she was trying really hard to help and give back by working with HIV patients. And trying to get her son mental help. So just all those aspects to the character, and being so angry at her ex-husband. All that was very interesting and intense to perform, I must say. Even way back earlier, the scenes where I’m fighting with Lionel and then I leave Jeffrey and drive off. Plus I am jealous that he has a relationship with his dad and they are doing roadkill together. Just to see that she’s mad about it, and yet just being disgusted that they would do such a thing. Then she’s blaming Jeffrey when really she’s angry at her husband and that happens a lot too. There was a moment where I was screaming at Jeffrey, “Did you ever once think to include me?” That was her being hurt. Then I see him tearing up, and that’s the first emotion I ever saw him have in the entire show because he was just so completely disconnected. I love that scene in particular and also just like working with Evan Peters too.
Awards Daily: With Richard Jenkins, in the intensity of your moments, you can feel the visceral hatred that the two of you seem to have for each other. What was that dynamic like to play, and how did you get into that mindset together?
Penelope Ann Miller: Richard Jenkins is just a phenomenal actor, and unlike Evan, who was in character the whole time, Richard can break and joke around and then suddenly he is somebody else. He is so good that it was just so easy to just go right into it with him, and we would just have at each other. Even all the way to the end when we’re fighting about Jeffrey Dahmer’s brain being analyzed and not cremated along with his body. ,Whereas Lionel just wants to get rid of it and put it all behind him and Joyce wants to find out what caused this. Just them sitting in the courtroom you feel it. Even when they’re getting divorced, they can’t even talk to each other. She can’t even look at him and is so disgusted by him. But those things are very real to me when couples are going through a divorce and despise each other. You can’t even look at each other or talk to each other.
I have been around couples who have gone through stuff together but not quite like this. But to me the writing was so great that it wasn’t hard to get there, and the actors I worked with were so extraordinary. So it wasn’t difficult, is my answer! To get into it with him. It was exciting to be part of a show like this even though it’s a horrible story. But what I appreciate about it is that Ryan Murphy brought out so many different aspects to the story that we didn’t know about, and I think learning about the people that surrounded Jeffrey as well as the victims’ families who are affected by what he did, and still are. It gave me a compassionate aspect to it and allowed the audience to see that there’s not just this famous serial killer. That there were people who were truly destroyed by this. And that there was a systematic failure about why it took so long for him to get caught. That to me was fascinating, and made it riveting to watch.
Awards Daily: Final thoughts?
Penelope Ann Miller: I appreciate the interview and for asking me interesting questions. I think that Joyce was a very complex and complicated character, and it was great to be a part of the show. Which is why I think it became so successful. Plus working with Ryan was great.