Tom Goodman-Hill on His Surprise Emmy Nomination for ‘Baby Reindeer’ and His Struggle to Leave “Darrien” Behind

The first thing that occurs to you when you sit across from Tom Goodman-Hill is how little in common he has with his Baby Reindeer character Darrien. He’s not dark, gloomy, or disturbing in the slightest. In fact, he’s immensely cheerful and quick to smile. Actors are magicians, man.

How could anyone argue otherwise after watching Goodman-Hill play a well-to-do television producer who grooms a desperate young comic, only to drug him and take advantage of him while he’s unconscious? Goodman-Hill goes to some of the darkest places an actor can be asked to go, and in doing so, creates a character so memorably grim that despite only appearing in two of Baby Reindeer’s seven episodes, scored an Emmy nomination for Best Supporting Actor. 

In our conversation, Goodman-Hill talks about how he accessed those dark places, how hard it was to leave Darrien behind, and how surprised he was by the Academy’s decision to nominate him for his first Emmy.

Awards Daily: When I saw the preview for Baby Reindeer, I remember thinking what the hell is this? And then I watched it and while I was watching it, I said what the hell is this? (Laughs). It’s not often, especially in my line of work, where you see something that you haven’t seen before. Did you get the sense when you were reading the script that this was going something very different? 

Tom Goodman-Hill: It was exactly that feeling as soon as I read the script. I’d never read anything like it. I’d never read anything quite as emotionally hard hitting and as emotionally complex. I was initially sent episode four, so I was thrown right into that, obviously. And although I knew a little bit about Baby Reindeer as a stage show, and I knew that it was about Richard being stalked, I had no idea about the backstory to the backstory, as it were. So that was an enormous surprise to me and just the quality of the writing. I was so taken aback at how original the writing was, and I knew instantly that I wanted to do it. I had this enormous feeling immediately that I couldn’t bear for anyone else to play that part, which was surprising because it was so unlike anything I’d done before, but I just knew I could find a way into that. The writing is always the first thing that I turn to. When I see a script, if the script thrills me, if the script excites me, if it’s original, if it’s beautifully written, then I’m all over it. 

Awards Daily: What you’re asked to do, I thought was the height of bravery. You play this dark and devious character, and he’s monstrous, but he’s not a monster. He’s just a really horrendous human being. I hate it when terrible things happen, we have this tendency to turn people into monsters because I think it makes us feel better, but that monster is actually a person. Explain to me how you worked up to getting ready to play someone like this.

Tom Goodman-Hill: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head when you say he’s monstrous, but he’s not a monster. Anyone who behaves the way that Darrien does, only continues to be an abuser if they are not found out. I think this is what so many people forget about villains and particularly about famous literary villains or famous real life villains, is that they were caught. We know who they are because they were caught. If you have a character like Darrien who continues to live his high status life as a TV producer, if you have someone like that, the reason that they continue to do what they’re doing is because they are not monsters in the eyes of the public. They are ordinary human beings and those are the most terrifying people on earth because they continue to go about their daily business and have charm and status and a sense of humor, and they have warmth.

They have a degree of empathy and that is why they are so dangerous. In the UK, we had this bizarre creature called Jimmy Savile, who was a TV presenter and a serial abuser for his entire life. He got away with it because he didn’t come across as a monster, he came across as this avuncular jolly guy who’s going to do lovely things for you. Finding a way into Darrien was to say how would that man behave and continue to do what he’s doing? So I had to find the sense of humor, I had to find the empathy, I had to find the compassion, I had to find the warmth. And there had to be a bond between Darrien and Donny that explained why, at the end of the show, Donny returns to him and continues to agree to work for him. It’s utterly tragic, utterly monstrous. But all because Darrien is not, ostensibly, a monster. 

Awards Daily: The grooming aspect of it: Darrien knows what he’s doing. He has status. So there’s an unbalanced power dynamic. Richard’s character, Donny, doesn’t have what Darrien has and that’s what he wants. Darrien knows how to use that to reel him in. How does doing that impact you as an actor? How do you live in that character and shake him off at the end of the day?

Tom Goodman-Hill: I found it incredibly hard to shake it off. We’ve been talking about this actually in the SAG panel, all the nominees in the group, and it’s such a difficult thing, self care, because three of us in the category play pretty hideous people. It’s incredibly hard to find a regime that kind of suits you because until you’re doing the job, you don’t really know what impact it’s going to have on you. It’s only when you’re right in it that you go oh, this is hitting me quite hard, I’m finding this tough. And because I’ve never played anyone like him before, I was going home and just crying in my wife’s lap. I found it incredibly tough, and my wife said she’s never seen me like that. I found it hard to shake Darrien off for a long time afterwards. As you may or may not know, it took a long time for Baby Reindeer to come out because they had to find the right time to release it. I was grateful for the distance before having to go into the mixing studio to do the additional dialogue, because I was grateful for a little bit of time away from Darrien before I had to return to do the dub, let alone watch the thing again. Yeah, nothing’s ever hit me quite as hard as this has. As I said to the guys on the SAG panel, I really need to work on my self care because I need to find a way of breaking out of a role like this if I ever do something anywhere near as hideous as this again. 

Awards Daily: Speaking of Richard, to put his story out there like that, to say warts and all, I don’t think begins to cut it. Almost all of your work on the show is with him. It’s almost like a twofer play in that way. What was it like working with someone who was basically reliving artistically what they had gone through and you playing the part that you did, narratively, in his life.

Tom Goodman-Hill: I’m lost in awe of Richard. I don’t know how he did it. When we were doing it, I couldn’t understand how he was managing to do it. We talked and talked. That was the main thing. We would rehearse and we would talk and we would spend our time just talking and looking after each other as much as possible. What was extraordinary was he was as concerned about how I was feeling as I was about him. And I was like, dude I’m just playing the guy, you’re living this again. But it was an extraordinary relationship for that time because we were so close the whole time that we were doing that. There was no escape from those scenes. We constantly just had to look out for each other, hold each other’s hand, and we would just talk it out the whole time. It’s the most upsetting thing I’ve ever done. Obviously we had to pay due deference to Richard’s sort of emotional journey, but at the same time, we were trying to create two original characters in Darrien and Donny. And Richard was aware that he was also having to play not just himself, but a version of himself in order for it to work dramatically. And I was not playing his abuser. I was playing a version of his abuser, but also I was playing an original character.

I had to lift off the page what I saw and create something that I knew was going to be in some way entertaining and original, and also served Richard’s emotional journey. We were kind of telling two stories at the same time, in a strange sort of way, that were completely intertwined so it was upsetting unexpectedly at times. The strangest things would be really upsetting and then other sequences that you imagined might be upsetting were more mechanical because they had to be carefully choreographed. The periods of drug taking and drug induced stupor were bizarre. They were almost trance-like for both of us and really strange and dark and quiet and weird. No one else was on set and the crew were amazing. They just escaped the space as often as they possibly could. Weronika, who is an extraordinary director, would have a little mini monitor and she’d tuck herself into a corner of the set behind the kitchen cabinets so we couldn’t see and it would just be me and Richard in the space. I cannot communicate to you how weird that was because it was like a parallel universe. We were recreating these events in real time and it was extraordinary, I’ve never known anything like it.

Awards Daily: I think some of the obvious things that are in play in this show are the nature of abuse and post traumatic stress disorder that comes from that. But there’s also, I think, a real statement on fame and how someone who wants to be an artist and be successful at it, lowering and even debasing themselves to get near the possibility of someone who will help them, even if that someone is hurting them at the same time.

Tom Goodman-Hill: I think there are a lot of themes in the show that touch on what a strange industry we’re in and how dependent it is, particularly for artists, on relying on people they don’t know to help them in the industry. Trying to form a relationship with people that you’ve never worked with and somehow maintain your own artistic integrity and try and develop that, knowing that you’re at the mercy of the industry and you have to hope that the people that you choose to hitch your cart to, that you choose to help you develop your art, are going to look after you. When the industry fails in that respect, which it did for Richard, it’s heartbreaking. Because, as we know from Baby Reindeer, Richard Gadd is an extraordinary artist, and he’s created a brilliant piece of drama. How much sooner might he have produced that kind of work if he hadn’t been abused? We’ll never know. Thank God he survived it to be able to do it but you don’t know how much we lost along the way. 

Awards Daily: The question that I get asked a lot by those people who didn’t like it, the problem that they had, is they didn’t believe Donny was talented. Do you believe that Darrien thought Donny was truly talented? 

Tom Goodman-Hill: Wow, yeah, that’s a tricky one. I think you hit on it when you were commenting on an answer I gave earlier, that Donny had something that Darrien didn’t have, that Darrien wanted. And I think that’s the point, there’s a huge part of Darrien that knows he isn’t as talented as Donny and doesn’t have a little finger’s worth as much talent as Donny and wants to possess it. And so he wants to devour the innocence, the talent, the energy that Donny has. Darrien is like a vampire. He just wants to feed off him. So I think Darrien does believe that Danny has talent, but he’s too bitter and twisted and failed within himself. He knows that he is not a success as a human being or an artist and that has damaged him so much that he would rather destroy what he sees than nurture it.

Awards Daily: It’s interesting because the people who say that to me, they don’t think Donny’s act is good. My take on it was that Donny was trying too hard, because he’s actually very funny when he’s just communicating with people, and he actually was putting too much effort into props and outfits. The funny guy was in there, he was cloaking it and probably in some sort of defense of something. 

Tom Goodman-Hill: I think that the reason that the relationship between Donny and Darrien is so important is because Donny does need someone to hone his act. It’s not that he doesn’t need it, he does need it. He’s just incredibly unfortunate that the person who chooses to do that is Darrien. Because, apart from anything, he only takes him so far and then abandons him as an artist and then doesn’t really nurture anything else that Donny brings to the table. I’ve seen a lot of stand up comedy in my life. I love it. I love going to stand up comedy. Sometimes you see, if you go to smaller clubs, artists where their bravery knocks you out of the park. Just the fact that they’re standing up and doing what they’re doing is extraordinary. I couldn’t do it. I’ve done a lot of comedy over the years, and a lot of comedians have told me I should try it. I know I haven’t got the guts. There’s no way. So I’m always knocked out of the park when I see someone do stand up. And if one gag is funny, I’m like well done. If anything is funny, I’m like you’ve aced it. That kind of courage should be nurtured and looked after and not torn apart. 

Awards Daily: As I was going through my research on the show and watched it again before we spoke, it occurred to me that you’re only in two episodes. I was shocked by that because the character looms over so much of the series. Were you surprised by the nomination, especially playing an unsavory character and not having a lot of screen time to make your impact? 

Tom Goodman-Hill: Apart from anything, the nomination is just extraordinary. Yeah. I had zero expectations. I watched episode one and I was like Richard and Jess are going to win all the awards. The moment I saw it, I was like that is extraordinary. So it was a massive shock and honor and surprise, I screamed my head off. I couldn’t believe it. I really couldn’t believe it. And I’m massively moved because it’s the members of the American Academy that have voted for me to be nominated. I’m staggered by that. As for the screen time, we know Judi Dench won an Oscar (for Shakespeare in Love) with less screen time, but I’m still staggered to be nominated with the amount of screen time I have. It shows you how rich the character is, and it shows you how rich Richard’s writing is, and it shows you how deeply invested the work was that we were doing, that everyone was doing on that show. I think it’s a once in a lifetime show, and I’m really delighted to be nominated. It’s the cherry on top of 30 years of work. 

Awards Daily: You had referenced the last scene. Do you think there’s any chance that Darrien is being sincere at all? I think it’s a genius choice to let it be mysterious because it’s hard to believe that Darrien is not going to revert to form.

Tom Goodman-Hill: It’s an interesting one that. I think that speaks to Richard’s intentions in making the show in the first place, which is to show that anyone can be a victim and anyone can be an abuser. It takes the circumstances and it takes a lot of abuse in turn. Everyone’s in a cycle of one kind or another. Everyone has their ups and downs and there but for the grace of God go I, if the circumstances conspire against me. So I think it is an entirely serious ending. I think Donny has hit rock bottom there really, and to hear a kind word and get a free drink right there, sitting there, not only is he going to be looking at the barman with gratitude, but he’s also going to be thinking in his head oh, now I understand what Martha did when she walked into the bar. I think it just speaks to how much we have to pay respect to what survivors go through and what they have to do in order to continue to live their lives, because it could happen to literally anyone. 

Awards Daily: Last question. It’s an easy one. Is your phone ringing a lot more now? Because it should be. 

Tom Goodman-Hill: The response has been lovely. I’ve had extraordinary messages from people I’ve worked with over the 30 years in the industry who’ve contacted me and gone wow, Tom, you knocked it out of the park. And it’s just delightful. I’m so happy that’s happened. I’m 56 and I’ve been doing this for 30 years. I think if this had happened to me when I was 26, I wouldn’t have been able to deal with it. I’d have spun out. I couldn’t have taken the pressure. For it to happen now is just a beautiful thing and I’m loving it. I’m just so happy that I am where I am right now. It’s lovely. 

Baby Reindeer is available to stream on Netflix now