When I sat down with Aubrey Plaza to talk about her four-time Independent Spirit nominated crime film Emily the Criminal, I told Plaza the true story of how I had to drive nearly two hours through the sticks of Michigan (where I lost cell phone coverage at least twice) to the nearest theater playing the film. Plaza was immediately cheered by my little revelation. Being one of the few filmmakers left (along with Scorsese and Spielberg) who wholeheartedly believe that the theatrical viewing experience is far superior to streaming for films, it did her heart good to know that I trekked through deepest, darkest boonies to see her film.
And what a terrific film it is. Emily the Criminal is not only a first-rate thriller, but also speaks to the stresses of a modern economy that treats gig workers as disposable and makes it hard for those who’ve made mistakes in their life to get ahead. Weighed down by the crushing weight of her student debt, Emily turns to crime with the help of Youcef (played by Theo Rossi), a sweet (if somewhat sketchy) expert in credit card fraud. From there, Emily’s world expands into more dangerous territory as she carves a path of her own when all legitimate roads are blocked off.
In our conversation, we touch on all these topics, and I even sneak in a couple of questions about Plaza’s equally stellar work on this season of The White Lotus.
Awards Daily: What drew you to the subject matter of Emily the Criminal ?
Aubrey Plaza: Truthfully, I was just drawn to the script. I was drawn to the movie as a movie because it really is such an undeniably great script. The script feels exactly like the movie in that it just barrels forward. It has this momentum that is so fun. The subject matter I think only enhances the film because it makes the character relatable. The kind of struggles that she’s dealing with in terms of being a young person navigating the economy right now, and being saddled with so much debt and feeling like there’s no way out. But I don’t really look for movies based on any kind of politically motivated reasons. I just want to make a great film that people will remember and enjoy. But I think the subject matter definitely enhances the movie. It just makes you believe the journey that she’s on and believe all the decisions that she’s making, because you understand where she’s coming from.
Awards Daily: I think this movie would be entertaining without the subtext, but it’s the subtext which I think takes it to a whole other level. And the subtext really seems like the value of work. That’s really driven home in the scene with you and Gina Gershon. She really thinks she’s doing you a favor when she’s offering you work that you’re not gonna get paid for.
Aubrey Plaza: What was the line? “I just don’t understand how you feel so comfortable…” (asking someone to work for free)? Yeah, that to me is everything—like, that’s the whole movie right there. It’s a cathartic scene, and John wrote the character kind of as someone that is saying all the things that we, that I think everybody, would wanna say in that situation. But, because for whatever societal reasons, we don’t. I do think it’s about the value of work, but also it’s about the idea of—what’s right? Who’s right and who’s wrong? And I think that aspect is really interesting too, because (writer/director) John Patton Ford didn’t want it to be so black and white. He didn’t want it to be like, oh, you know, she’s right and she’s wrong. It’s more like, maybe there’s some truth to both of these things, but it’s still fucked, you know?
Awards Daily: Yeah, Gershon is not exactly the villain, but I do think it’s interesting that she’s doing this to another woman. She’s not looking to throw a rope over the wall.
Aubrey Plaza: Exactly. And they came from the same place, too. Yeah, that part is so great. We see two people who came from the same place, but have gone on different tracks. And for me, this is the moment when Emily becomes a boss. And she’s not a corporate boss, but you see like, these people are equal, just because of who they are. Just, one is navigating the system and one is operating outside of the system—that doesn’t mean they’re not equal. She’s now a boss in her own right.
Awards Daily: A friend of mine who’s a writer, after he watched Emily he texted me some immortal words: “no one needs a friend like Liz.” [Laughs.] And you know, I think everyone has had a Liz. The way you portray the relationship, Emily cares about Liz, but she also knows she’s kind of sketchy and unreliable. That was an interesting balance.
Aubrey Plaza: Yes. I think that relationship was so fascinating to me because, well, first of all, female relationships are so interesting and complicated and not, I don’t think, explored as much as they should be in movies. Female friendships in film are mostly just about men, but this one’s not. And I think it is very familiar to have that idea of hanging onto a friendship from your past, when it’s just not relevant anymore. You’re totally changed. You’re not who you were, but you’re kind of hanging onto this relationship, and maybe for Emily it’s out of survival. She basically has only Liz in her support network in the film. So yeah, it’s a really relatable thing. A lot of people have said to me that they totally know that dynamic.
Awards Daily: I loved your relationship with Theo Rossi in the film. Chemistry is a mysterious thing, right? I mean, you just sort of have it or you don’t. I was familiar with some of his work, and of course Sons of Anarchy, but what made you, as a producer, look at Theo and go, yeah, he’s perfect for this.
Aubrey Plaza: We took a long time to cast this film. We did not mess around. We wanted every part, every, every person in the film, even if they had one line, to be an incredible actor. And that was really, really a priority for us. So obviously the role of Youcef needed to be someone brilliant and perfect. We talked to a lot of people. We auditioned a lot of people. We cast a very, very wide net. We did not discriminate against anybody. We just, we were open, you know? Theo came into our life as a suggestion from somebody. I had seen a little bit of his work, but not a ton of it, so I wasn’t super familiar with him. I was in Italy shooting at the time and he met with John first, I think. Then John said, this guy’s really interesting. You should meet him. We should talk to him. And, um, I made plans to meet Theo on Zoom and he likes to tell the story that I didn’t… that I, I guess I didn’t show up to our first Zoom meeting. I don’t remember what happened. [Laughs].
I was shooting nights or I got the time zone mixed up. I don’t… I don’t know. [Laughs.] But it started off in a funny way where he basically just immediately started busting my balls because I got the time wrong at the first meeting. But it was a good icebreaker, because he’s not shy and I got to see who he is almost immediately. I don’t want to speak for him or get too detailed about his personal life, but he understood the character on a deep level. He had the background and the knowledge to understand why a person would become a criminal or be involved in criminal activities. He grew up in a way where he could understand that life. That was really important I think, because it’s a movie for the little guy, you know? It’s a movie for people that didn’t grow up with privilege and easy access and shortcuts; it’s a movie for people that really had to fight for what they have. I think he has the spirit of that. He’s just an incredible actor. And we knew he could tap into, you know, the Youcef part of himself. And he’s old school, too. We have that in common. Like, there’s something really old school about him. He reminds me of a young De Niro kind of guy. He’s from Staten Island. He’s a New Yorker. And also we just hit it off right away—I think really just because he immediately started giving me shit [Laughs]. And I was giving every bit of it right back to him, and the chemistry just bloomed from there.
Awards Daily: What’s interesting about your relationship in the film is, well, I think maybe inarguably he’s kind of the sweeter character of the two. And that’s sort of inverted from what you’d expect in most films. Usually the guy may be charming up front, but there’s like a darker sort of thing in the background. But in Emily it’s the opposite, which I think is a nice way to play it.
Aubrey Plaza: Oh, he’s totally the sweetheart, absolutely. What I love about their arc in the movie is that it’s so unexpected. I think the goal for me and John was always to have that love story be almost a surprise to introduce his character, and have the audience think: okay, this is how it’s gonna go. This guy’s the bad guy or whatever. But then you just flip it on its head and you’re like, wait a minute. Now they love each other, and he’s vulnerable, and sweet. And yeah, the moment where he wants to put ice on my face, and he’s just standing there in that kind of wide shot, and he’s kind of small in the frame. It’s… yeah, that moment is beautiful and he plays it so perfectly. Cause he really is that guy. He’s our sweet guy. He just had all the colors for that part.
Awards Daily: I realized after watching the movie that I never really looked at Emily as a victim, even before she makes her move into fraud. I mean, she probably really is a victim of this system that takes advantage of workers in the gig economy, and college that costs too much, and compound interest loans. But it’s hard to see her that way because of how she carries herself. But there is a specific scene where she really could end up a victim, and that’s when she gets held up and robbed in her own apartment. And there’s that moment after it happens where you sort of stomp around your apartment for a second, and then we actually see the moment you decide, no, this will not be how this story ends.
Aubrey Plaza: Yes. Yes. I mean, I’ll never forget reading that for the first time in the script. Same with the moment earlier on when she’s stealing the car, when she makes the decision to just go. I had the same reaction with this scene where I was like, oh, so, she’s gonna do that now. Okay. In the moment when she decides: I’m gonna get my money back, and I’m gonna get these guys back immediately—that’s a pivotal point in the film. That’s the thing about these little micro decisions she makes. They keep escalating and escalating until you just can’t believe the decisions that she’s making. And I think that’s what’s so fun about the movie. It’s surprising. It does not do what movies normally do. It’s unpredictable.
Awards Daily: When you say that you can’t believe the decisions she’s making, I think that’s true in the aggregate that they seem wild. But amazingly, in each moment, you understand her choices, right? Like they almost seem like they’re her only choice.
Aubrey Plaza: Yeah. I feel very strongly about the first interview scene, and how that kind of subtly lays the groundwork for her progression. When I read the script and when I went in to shoot that scene, I had a very clear idea of a woman who has already had enough. She’s up to here. Normally when movies start, you’re down here and you slowly get to the point where you’ve had enough. This movie starts when she’s already had enough. And so for me it was very important to portray that in the first couple minutes of the movie so that we understand how it escalates so fast, and we believe it. Because the whole movie wouldn’t work if you couldn’t believe that she would do something like that. So it’s really just about tracking all of these little moments and making sure that they all land right, so that you go on the ride and you don’t question it.
Awards Daily: It’s funny. I remember thinking that this is a movie with two “fuck you” interview scenes and usually a movie will only have one moment like that. It could have felt redundant. But it doesn’t, because one builds to another. They’re both absolutely integral.
Aubrey Plaza: Yes. Totally. That’s what I mean about being fed up from the start—because of the first interview scene we know, it’s already blown out from the beginning. By the second we know it’s going to be something else. She’s in another place. The Gershon scene is a much longer scene than the first interview scene. It’s the longest scene in the entire movie and in the script, and I think it was really interesting to do that with a character that only appears once, in what is essentially a cameo role.
Awards Daily: This is a really exciting directorial debut for John. Tell me if I’m full of shit here, but there are moments when I was watching John’s over the shoulder shots, the use of music, and the lack of over-explaining, where I was like, if Michael Mann started out as an independent director today, I think he would’ve made Emily the Criminal. And I mean that as a profound compliment, because I love Michael Mann.
Aubrey Plaza: I love Michael Mann too. Yeah, I think Michael Mann is definitely there in the script. I don’t wanna speak for John because he has all kinds of inspirations for this movie. A lot of French independent films, actually. It’s like a Michael Mann-Jacques Audiard combo platter. I think he drew on a lot of inspirations like that for the movie, especially to make such a gritty LA story. John is so knowledgeable about movies and he’s such an exceptional writer. He knew exactly what he wanted. And Jeff Bierman, the cinematographer who’s so great—those guys went to AFI together—they kind of had their own kind of language. The two of them are slick guys, and they knew what they were doing. They definitely understood the approach.
Awards Daily: I think people for a long time had a certain sense of you. There’s a kind of blessing and a curse to having a thing you’re most known for—because it can become the thing that people think is the only thing you can do. Of course, I’m referring to Parks and Rec, which I absolutely adore. But there you have a very strong persona, and a very specific and memorable one. I could see it making it hard for people to see you in roles like Emily. So I’m wondering if part of the impetus behind creating Evil Hag as a production company was to be able to create the roles for yourself that you wanted to do.
Aubrey Plaza: Maybe on an unconscious level. Consciously, I just wanna make great films. The experience of producing Ingrid Goes West really fired me up about being a producer. It was the first time that I really had my hands all over something from the very beginning to the very end, and it was such a beautiful journey that that film went on. Everything about it was so fulfilling for me. Ultimately, I’m sure I’ll produce movies that I’m not in as an actor. But, I’m in my prime now, you know, I gotta get in there and get my shit done. But yeah, I don’t think about it consciously like, “I’m gonna show ’em all! And this part’s gonna show ’em all!” It’s more just about, what is interesting to me and what challenges me? And the things that challenge me are the things that, if I pull it off, will also show people other sides of me. Because the things that I want to do are things that I haven’t done before.
I just want to expand my roles and do things that I haven’t done before for myself—for my own self, you know, not for anybody else. But if it works out that the end result is that people are surprised, or maybe that they see something they weren’t expecting, that’s great too. But ultimately with Evil Hag, I just wanna make really great films. I want to be known as a producer for having a really elevated quality of movie. I want people to think, wow, if it’s an Evil Hag film, I gotta see it.
Awards Daily: Speaking of a movie like that… Black Bear. I caught up to it a little late, but I was staggered by it. I’ve been telling everybody, listen: you have to see this, but you have to understand that it’s going to go from sort of like an indie, M. Night Shyamalan in the woods kind of vibe to like, John Cassavetes and Gena Rowlands in Opening Night in the last third. It’s just insane and totally wonderful. I’ve never seen anything like it.
Aubrey Plaza: Whenever I tell people to watch that movie, I beg them. Just—just stay with it. Don’t turn it off after 20 minutes because things are gonna get really crazy. That movie was incredibly, I mean, excruciatingly painful for me to do, but also incredibly fulfilling. Again, it was the script. The script was so great, but also scary. That part for an actor is… like, that’s your dream. To be able to play an actor that’s acting, that’s got so many layers and so many complications. I mean, when I read it, I was like, oh, I don’t know if I can do this, but… I wanna try.
Awards Daily: You were also cast in the second season of The White Lotus, which has been terrific thus far—the condom wrapper scene alone, that whole episode was just incredible. You play your character in a way that I think is really unexpected. Perhaps more vulnerable than we might have thought.
Aubrey Plaza: Mike White’s scripts are so brilliant; they’re so nuanced and they do a lot with so few words. I feel like the challenge for me was to decide how deeply this woman is feeling all these things, and how much she’s going to show or express them, or how much she’s going to keep inside. It’s a slow burn, but in a way Harper’s journey in The White Lotus is kind of similar to Emily the Criminal in that, like I said before, when Emily the Criminal starts she’s already at an 11. It was important for me to start The White Lotus journey also at a place that was higher stakes, and I felt very strongly that this woman is not happy right now. There’s something going on with her marriage that’s not great. We’re seeing them at a low point. And I felt strongly about that choice to kind of show up on the boat already in a place of being unsettled and sad.
Awards Daily: You can see that she’s on this cusp that anybody who’s been in a failing relationship will recognize – where you’re wondering, is this starting to fall apart?
Aubrey Plaza: Yeah, but it’s interesting because when you read the script, that’s not clear. It doesn’t exactly lay that out for you. So you could make a choice that could be a little less intense, you know, you could make a choice to think, well, they’re just fighting cause that’s what they do. But, I don’t know. There was something about it to me that felt deeper than that, and I felt like, no—this is one of those moments in someone’s marriage where you’re really being put to the test. And so I took that very seriously, and I think the challenge overall for me was to just to…keep it together, and to try to show a character that is vulnerable. To show a character that could be perceived as coming off like a raging asshole, but really there’s so much more going on there. It was important to me to show that vulnerability and to just try to be really honest about it, and not try to make it funny.
Awards Daily: Finally, I just want to congratulate you on the Independent Spirit Awards nominations and say that I think they should really let you host and give you an award this year. I mean, “Come on, get happy,” right?
Aubrey Plaza: I would love to. I mean, are you kidding? I had the best time hosting that show. I’d love to do it again, but apparently I’m busy…[Laughs].
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